The problem with Asstraffic/Assholefever/...

[alexxx]

Anyone can say "stop those productions". Whether it makes a difference or not is the important thing and without backing it will make very little. If everyone went around with the opinion that it pointless to say something then nothing would ever change and everything would be done as it always was.

Right, I didn't intend to say that everything is unuseful and nothing can be changed.
Maybe I'm too realistic but if somebody gets a request to shoot 2 complete scenes with DP and deepthroat with 1 girl and 3 males each and 1 scene full anal with ATM between an old men and a girl and for one scene is clearly stated that girl and viewer should feel surprised by the strenght of action I don't see a lot of space for softcore.

I also don't think the people decide what to see if you mean from a point of what is created. I don't recall Kovi ever saying to me "Go and find out what the people want to see". A script writer creates a script, submits it to a production company. The owner of the company submits it to a distributor like Private, Private say yes or no and give financial backing if its a yes. The production company then directs the script and that is what you see if you choose too. I have never seen a company asking for third party scripts so that the viewers can decide what is made.

Porn has never been an harbour for screenwriters... and if you try to change that then you become "boring".
That's why gonzo now represents the majority of the entire porn production. And, everybody knows, in gonzo people look at the scene and not at the synopsis...

If you meant from the viewpoint though that we choose if we wish to watch it, then that is totally correct. And maybe if this thread proves that many people do not watch the material created by Perfect Gonzo then change will happen. I think the overall jist of this thread was that its too hard for many tastes and could it be toned down a bit (maybe in just some cases to broaden the view appeal). Many people do not like huge gapes or dominant male actors.

This is good...finally is up to you to decide what to buy or not and then I think that depending on the sales some productions could change.

[Rosseau]

Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure I buy that, and with the greatest of respect, but it just sounds like a bit of porn industry PR 'spin', by way of damage-limitation.

I think the clue is in the title Mr. Christian has given his company, I mean 'CruelMedia', for goodness sake...!

Says it all really.

You have to seperate what we see in the scene and what happens "in character" from what happens behind the scenes, i.e. how the girls are really being treated. These are two entirely different things, as Steve has pointed out.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of gaping, spitting, face-slapping and such things, either. But what it comes down to is a matter of taste, not morals. If the girls consent to it beforehand (which we can assume), then I don't see a problem with it, frankly. I also find it a tad hypocritical to proclaim oneself a fan of "hard anal sex" and dp's, as some here do, and then complain about spitting because it is "disrespectful". I wonder what is more uncomfortable, ass-fucking or spitting...

When I watch behind-the-scenes footage from Perfectgonzo or interviews with Raul Cristian, I don't get the impression that he's a psychopathic misogynist as some here make him out to be. You have to keep in mind that what you see in the scenes is indeed "in character" acting, and what is written in the scene descriptions is loud, sensationalist advertising. Whatever one thinks about that, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how the girls are really treated behind the scenes. A lot of girls come back for several Perfectgonzo shoots, including rather famous stars like Rita Faltoyano or Gilda Joy who have done scenes with many different producers, so they aren't exactly desperate for work. That seems to show that Perfectgonzo can't really be hell on Earth.

I think part of what we have here, pagangod_uk, is the common British superiority complex, i.e. the attitude that "these Eastern Europeans are so uncivilized". I've seen it before in the spanking community (I'm a fan of that stuff).

There is a company called Rigid East who produce fairly hard SM / corporal punishment videos. The attitude that British spanking fans had about this company for a long time bordered on hysteria, and a lot of it was based on misconceptions and misinformed guesswork. "Oh my God, look at how badly they treat the women! How they exploit these poor, starving girls!" Never mind that the Czech Republic isn't exactly a Third World nation, as some Brits seem to think. "Someone should sue them and put an end to this!"

It all stopped, finally, when one day an American model, who is a regular poster on the British Spanking forums, went to Prague and made a corporal punishment video with Rigid East. She had a great time, described it as one of the best experiences she had ever had, and said that the guys are really nice and funny. And no, the company doesn't exploit starving Eastern European girls. The performers are all from the local SM scene, they like this stuff, and while what you see in the videos is brutal, they're having a good time behind the scenes.

The bottom line is, one should be careful to make judgments simply from what we "see", because what we see includes a lot of play, and the story behind the scenes is usually very different.

[xxaru]

I haven't read this whole thread... but I'll give my thoughts anyways.

IMO, gonzo is best when you have people that really want to fuck each others brains out. That raw passion/chemistry is hard to fake, but aggression is something that's very close to it (just like that thin line between love and hate) that can be thrown into a scene to fake or give the impression of that raw passion/chemistry between the performers. I think this is why a lot of people are going for this aggressive stuff. Of course, if you take it too far then it can hurt the scene, especially when it becomes evident the girls not into it... which then kills what gonzo should be about to begin with.

[sumsbums]

I also find it a tad hypocritical to proclaim oneself a fan of "hard anal sex" and dp's, as some here do, and then complain about spitting because it is "disrespectful". I wonder what is more uncomfortable, ass-fucking or spitting...

I knew somebody would try to spin it this way. My previous two girlfriends loved getting fucked up the ass every now and then, and, no, hard assfucking does not hurt. Gaping does not hurt, and if your girl is into anal, it will turn her on just as much as it turns you on. And, after all, we're talking about anal porn here. It's a common misconception that anal sex is painful, brought up mostly by guys who never had the pleasure to fuck a girl's ass.

Had I tried to spit or slap my respective girlfriend in the face (thank god I'm no psycho), I'd probably have been solo the next moment.

I think part of what we have here, pagangod_uk, is the common British superiority complex, i.e. the attitude that "these Eastern Europeans are so uncivilized".
(...)
"Oh my God, look at how badly they treat the women! How they exploit these poor, starving girls!" Never mind that the Czech Republic isn't exactly a Third World nation, as some Brits seem to think. "Someone should sue them and put an end to this!"

Ok, you brought this up, not me (I know raising that issue usually pisses off people on porn forums).

You can't deny that whenever the term "Euro Girls" is used, it's ALWAYS eastern european girls. Furthermore, you can't deny that while it's not as bad as some 20 years ago, countries like Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary and Romania are still WAY less wealthy than your average central European country. If I'm wrong, hey, why don't 21 Sextury try to find 19 year old girls that look like supermodels for a rough DAP scene in France? Yeah, thought so. So who's being hypocritical here?

To avoid any misunderstandings: I'm NOT saying that central Europe is in any way "superior" to eastern Europe. But most of the Euro porn biz is still based on the income gap between West and East.
I'm relatively fine with that, as long as I don't get the feeling that the girs are being exploited. That's all.

[Nihilist]

I am also unsure of what the Brit superiority complex is. As a Brit, I do find that as stereotypical as stating that we (the British) think all Eastern Europe is poor.

Maybe back in the 1900's when the UK was a dominant World power that may have been true, but nowadays we are far behind most of Europe in many areas.

I lived for six months in Budapest and was very impressed with its transport system, its shopping areas and its far more peaceful and slower pace of life. It was also far cheaper to live in than the UK capital and had services and facilities on par with London, if in fact not better.

There are thousands of homeless people living in the UK just as there are in other countries. I am sure if one of those people living in a cardboard box in London was asked why he/she is superior they would give you a rather odd look.

However, personally I do not like seeing females being semi-beaten up for others enjoyment and that is coming from a Brit who would regard his country as one of the most violent Westernised civilisations in existance.

[Nihilist]

I thought it might also be worth mentioning that from my experience the majority of the US porn is far softer than the European style. There are notable exceptions but I believe they are done for the shock factor rather than to create a huge fan base (such as Max Hardcore).

I am an associate on a website that has a predominantly US member base. Each month the clips available for download are summed up with the top 10 clips receiving awards. 99% of the time these clips will be softcore or even simulated sex scenes (such as Penthouse or Playboy style movies).

To back up this I did a bit of research. I checked a well known torrent site (that I look at to ensure that none of my content ever appears on) and found that although all the perfectgonzo stuff does appear, its download amount are low. Given that this is theoretically free on these sites and has received low downloads, would suggest that its not actually that popular!

[porndog]

I thought it might also be worth mentioning that from my experience the majority of the US porn is far softer than the European style. There are notable exceptions but I believe they are done for the shock factor rather than to create a huge fan base (such as Max Hardcore).

I think you're right about that. The dominant US porn producers are Vivid and Wicked. Lots of fake tits, plots and dialog This is porn intended for mass consumption, you know married couple stuff.

[pagangod_uk]

...I think part of what we have here, pagangod_uk, is the common British superiority complex, i.e. the attitude that "these Eastern Europeans are so uncivilized"...

Well, may I say Thank You to Rosseau, for turning this previously even-handed debate into an issue of cultural differences and apparently, accusing me of racism, albeit in a veiled manner...

How crass and, by the way, sloppy to use so-called ''British Superiority'' as an argument in this debate, but all you actually achieve is to highlight your own ignorant and generalized pre-conceptions about myself and other Brits.

Speaks volumes about your own psyche and (possible) bigotries and how easily they can rise to the surface, given no real provocation.

I advise you to actually bother and read my initial posts in this thread - then you may possibly gain a real insight as to where coming from regarding this topic.

I have (previously) strongly cited American tastes/market forces and how they may, or may not have influenced Eastern European producers in the type of product they generate.

As for defence of Raul Christian based on interviews you've seen/read on Perfectgonzo - erm, isn't that more than just a tad naive?

...You have to seperate what we see in the scene and what happens "in character" from what happens behind the scenes, i.e. how the girls are really being treated...

I think you're elevating the making of porn into high-art/real film making - these guys are making Gonzo, not Gone With Wind...!

I'm no flag-waving Moralist, nor do I think are any of the like-wise thinking individuals here in this entire discussion, all we're doing is expressing our frustration as to where Euro porn is going.

Anyways, with all that out of the way, can we return to the real discussion at hand here?...

Peace,

PG.

[budtugley]

I'm with sumsbums on this one.
I own a few Max Hardcore videos but his later fare got well, violent and weird.
Donkey Punch, if anybody saw that piece of shit, went way too far.
Some of the JM Productions fare also went too far.
There must be some porn fans who like to see the gals get slapped, their hair pulled, get spit on, pissed on, abused, spanked, and mistreated.
Not me. I like porn nasty but nice. Elegant yet sleazy.
There should be some affection between a man and his lady partner, and they should treat each other with respect. I like to see the sex performers kiss and nuzzle as his cock is buried balls deep in her ass. Like they're enjoying each others bodies and they're getting off on the action. Loving sex not abusive sex.
If I wanted to see people get mistreated, I'd be renting and buying SM and dungeon videos.
Hopefully, this too, shall pass.

[Morlano]

Hi,

I can only speak for myself but I fully agree with budtugley.

Looking at porn you put yourself in the place of the guy, and for me I could not imagine having fun spitting in a girls face or even worse punching her tits. For me this is different from a timely ass slap...

Never liked that behaviour and even in some of the 21st sextury scenes I found that the guy ruined the spirit of the scene by his behaviour.
Some other scenes with the same level of "hardness" of the sex as such, came across way more positive as you could feel there was fun involved for both parties.

Kind of the same applies for some of the Sineplex films lately - they have made big improvements in film- and processing quality, great models, but the guys .... you think they don´t like their job, don´t like the girls and only pull their joy out of degrading the girls, not from having great sex with them.

Maybe there is a market for that, hope that it is a minority, glad to read that I´m not alone, and myself I will skip those films as much as I skip movies with fake-tit girls.

Regards - Morlano

[Rosseau]

How crass and, by the way, sloppy to use so-called ''British Superiority'' as an argument in this debate, but all you actually achieve is to highlight your own ignorant and generalized pre-conceptions about myself and other Brits.

Speaks volumes about your own psyche and (possible) bigotries and how easily they can rise to the surface, given no real provocation.

I advise you to actually bother and read my initial posts in this thread - then you may possibly gain a real insight as to where coming from regarding this topic.

I'm not bigoted against Brits by any stretch of the imagination. I lived in the UK myself for a while, and I liked it a lot. My "superiority complex" remark was half-joking, actually, but from your indignant reaction, I guess it didn't come over that way. I'm sorry if I offended you.

As stereotypical as it is, though, there is a grain of truth in it. An English friend of mine once said to me: "You know, when it comes to arrogance, the only people who are worse than the Germans are the English. Or maybe the other way around." I'm German, and I laughingly had to agree with him. He was half-joking, too, of course. Half.

My main point was, I've seen discussions on porn forums before where certain producers and companies were vilified for all sorts ot things that, in the end, didn't turn out to be true. So I tend to be sceptical about that at first sight. That's all.

Nationalities don't really have anything to do with it per se. But yes, in my experience, this easy "pointing of the finger" seems to be especially common among, shall we say, Western Europeans. Including Germans, mind you. Actually, there is no one worse than the Germans...

As for defence of Raul Christian based on interviews you've seen/read on Perfectgonzo - erm, isn't that more than just a tad naive?

Yes and no. Of course you can't take everything at face value. But my guess is that, if he were a total arsehole and misogynist, he probably couldn't hide it in an interview, either. Some of the "spitting, slapping" gonzo producers come across as real jerks, which makes total sense. But I don't get that vibe from Cristian. I get the impression that he does have a fetish for pushing the boundaries, but that he has respect for the girls at the same time.

[steve cross]

How crass and, by the way, sloppy to use so-called ''British Superiority'' as an argument in this debate, but all you actually achieve is to highlight your own ignorant and generalized pre-conceptions about myself and other Brits.

Speaks volumes about your own psyche and (possible) bigotries and how easily they can rise to the surface, given no real provocation.

I advise you to actually bother and read my initial posts in this thread - then you may possibly gain a real insight as to where coming from regarding this topic.

I'm not bigoted against Brits by any stretch of the imagination. I lived in the UK myself for a while, and I liked it a lot. My "superiority complex" remark was half-joking, actually, but from your indignant reaction, I guess it didn't come over that way. I'm sorry if I offended you.

As stereotypical as it is, though, there is a grain of truth in it. An English friend of mine once said to me: "You know, when it comes to arrogance, the only people who are worse than the Germans are the English. Or maybe the other way around." I'm German, and I laughingly had to agree with him. He was half-joking, too, of course. Half.

My main point was, I've seen discussions on porn forums before where certain producers and companies were vilified for all sorts ot things that, in the end, didn't turn out to be true. So I tend to be sceptical about that at first sight. That's all.

Nationalities don't really have anything to do with it per se. But yes, in my experience, this easy "pointing of the finger" seems to be especially common among, shall we say, Western Europeans. Including Germans, mind you. Actually, there is no one worse than the Germans...

As for defence of Raul Christian based on interviews you've seen/read on Perfectgonzo - erm, isn't that more than just a tad naive?

Yes and no. Of course you can't take everything at face value. But my guess is that, if he were a total arsehole and misogynist, he probably couldn't hide it in an interview, either. Some of the "spitting, slapping" gonzo producers come across as real jerks, which makes total sense. But I don't get that vibe from Cristian. I get the impression that he does have a fetish for pushing the boundaries, but that he has respect for the girls at the same time.

Knowing Raul, I totally agree with the last paragraph of your post... Majority of the girls simply like Raul, and like to work with Raul...

[Ricardo Soli]

Knowing Raul, I totally agree with the last paragraph of your post... Majority of the girls simply like Raul, and like to work with Raul...

You're right Mr. Mindenttudó. But, only the simple ones. And this ones after that are hating to work for others.
Raul's work is like the "drug", they become addicts at the end.
Hopefully i'll see you performing in his movies in the future.

[gepont]

Steve and Ricardo you're both wrong and right in certain things. Ric, you're right, indeed, not everybody likes to work with productions like PG, or for Rocco or even Toni Ribas for that matter. I heard girls telling "I never work for them again". But you're wrong when you categorize the models to "simple ones" who like and.. i don't know, smart ones who don't. It's not like that. It's a matter of personality and professional attitude. Actually I think some of the girls who don't like to work for Raul are very "simple" because they don't understand WHY Raul shoots these kind of things, and they only can think of "oh, they slapped me or spit on me, those bastards". A professional girl washes off the spit or the five loads of cum from her face, gets dressed, gets her money and goes on with her life and can think that as a job.

On the original topic, actually I don't like to treat girls like that either in private life of on film. I know I'm so 20th century but I don't even like anal particularly on the first place. Neither to watch or to fuck. I watched quite a few PG titles and I personally - as a man, a viewer - don't like them. However I agree, they are great pieces of porn in business terms, good camera work, good scenes, there's always something new, something unexpected idea. And they are produced very well for their niche, for their own audience, hands down.
Nothing wrong with PG. If you don't like it, don't watch it, watch Adamo or ,I don't know, Claudia Bluebell or Abby Winters.

[pagangod_uk]

I'm not bigoted against Brits by any stretch of the imagination. I lived in the UK myself for a while, and I liked it a lot. My "superiority complex" remark was half-joking, actually, but from your indignant reaction, I guess it didn't come over that way. I'm sorry if I offended you.

As stereotypical as it is, though, there is a grain of truth in it. An English friend of mine once said to me: "You know, when it comes to arrogance, the only people who are worse than the Germans are the English. Or maybe the other way around." I'm German, and I laughingly had to agree with him. He was half-joking, too, of course. Half.

Ok, apology accepted, but...

My indignation, I feel, was righteous - given the apparent bigotry therein...

You must realize that comments which are intended as being only''half-joking'' are not necessarily going to come across as this in a medium such the written word, in the future it might politic to emphasize any intended humour in a more explicit manner, especially given the fact that I was not the only individual who took exception to your comments...

As for the debate about Raul Christian being a misogynist (or not), well, I'm heard it said that sociopaths are very good at mimicking everyday, normal behaviour, so as to fit in with so-called normal society, so why not misogynists too?

My main point being that if one was so disinclined to being a misogynist in the first instance, it would very difficult for one to 'fake' such behaviour in even a performance...

Unless, of course said individuals are 'method actors' eg; Marlon Brando, Robert DeNiro etc(!).

Peace,

PG.