Europa vs America - Some exchange of thoughts

[Walter Burns]

<mod-note> Walters original post was part of this topic
http://www.eurobabeindex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=833

I just decided to split topics, to make things better readable and to leave comments in topics where they can be found easier later by searching the headlines, if neccessary.
Mr_White <mod-note-end> and back to Walters post.....

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Like I said, I don't want to offend anyone.

I just read most of the threads here (while I hardly read any anymore on ADT). One of the reasons I stopped reading ADT like I used to, has to do with the fact that it is an American centric site, where European porn is and always will be "foreign porn".

I can't help it but I often feel like I am going in the same direction in this place. Promotion of European girls and porn is one thing. I am all for it. It's been long overdue and I'm sure it's one of the reasons Sbando and a handful of others have started EBI all these years ago, when nobody gave a fuck about it and European girls were described by the color of their hair -- the brunette and the blonde.
But why does it have to be accompanied by indirect or direct America bashing (be it porn related or not), like it has been the case quite often here? It's putting me right off coming to read certain threads here. Same thing happened with the EGAFD forum a few years back. The attitude there was for awhile that European porn is superior and American porn sucks. And when European porn sucks, it's the Americans fault. I see the same attitude in some posts here.

Sorry for the rant. It's just the way I feel sometimes when I read certain threads.

[sbando]

Not by me or mine. But unfortunately it's true, even if it's just a consequence of ideology playing a big role more and in more in Internet boards.

[Mr_White]

(...)
But why does it have to be accompanied by indirect or direct America bashing (be it porn related or not), like it has been the case quite often here? It's putting me right off coming to read certain threads here. Same thing happened with the EGAFD forum a few years back. The attitude there was for awhile that European porn is superior and American porn sucks. And when European porn sucks, it's the Americans fault. I see the same attitude in some posts here.

.... Walter, thanks for your open words.

Personally I am sure not a fan of American porn. Mostly that is because acts I like to watch (i.e. watersports) are forbidden in America and hence American labels and producers just do not feature these kinda scenes. They ignore it, to say the least. Sadly, with that they make - or should I better say: force - even us Europeans to see less of this material than it would be, if America would be not a primary, but a secondary market. Since America is still one of the biggest (if not the biggest) market for the porn industry, performances like watersports are nowadays put into some worldwide niche. First that is because the Americans (with some little exceptions) do not produce this kinda material and second because even European producers and directors seem to have a censorship scissor in their heads while filming, because they fear to lose the American market, when they go back to the European porn like it was let´s say some 10 to 15 years ago.

So far the facts.

Do they justify bashing of America/Americans? IMHO: Not really. But on the other hand, I do understand why people around here sometimes have a tendency to talk not too nicely about America.

But, hey, it is their liberty to do so, isn´t it?

justmy2cent

[Lange]

I just went through the fist 2 pages of the Star Crossed forum at Adult DVD Talk. Only 1 thread was about an eastern european woman, Simone Peach. That thread had ZERO replies. It's like the americans don't know that women exist outside of America. I have even read someone complaining about euro chicks looking too much like models!! The only european women they seem to like are those who make movies in the states like Melissa Lauren, Katja Kassin, Roxy Jezel or Monica Sweetheart. A thread about Teegan or Taryn Thomas has 30 or 40 pages of replies while a thread about Angelina Crow or Liz Honey only has 1 or 2 pages of replies.

I as an european guy prefer european girls but I still like many american women in porn as well. But many american only seem to have interest in the american girls. I just don't understand why.

[STEMCELL]

The only exception to the rule is Annette Schwarz, who seems to have a lot of North American fanboys.

[Walter Burns]

.... Walter, thanks for your open words.

Personally I am sure not a fan of American porn. Mostly that is because acts I like to watch (i.e. watersports) are forbidden in America and hence American labels and producers just do not feature these kinda scenes. They ignore it, to say the least. Sadly, with that they make - or should I better say: force - even us Europeans to see less of this material than it would be, if America would be not a primary, but a secondary market. Since America is still one of the biggest (if not the biggest) market for the porn industry, performances like watersports are nowadays put into some worldwide niche. First that is because the Americans (with some little exceptions) do not produce this kinda material and second because even European producers and directors seem to have a censorship scissor in their heads while filming, because they fear to lose the American market, when they go back to the European porn like it was let´s say some 10 to 15 years ago.

So far the facts.

Facts? I am not convinced by your analysis.

Why would European producers fear the loss of the American market when most of them have never penetrated it to begin with? Even Salieri, a household name in European porn, is virtually unknown in the US.

Why blame America for bad European porn -- or for European porn that doesn't appeal to you? You seem to believe that American morality has had a great impact on European porn. I don't think this is a major factor at all. Instead, American porn economics and the greed/laziness -- if not to say outright ineptitude -- of European producers in dealing with it is a much bigger factor, IMO.

Do you know why Videorama cut most watersports from their DVD releases of their older titles a few years ago? It's not because of their desire to conquer the American market and to appease American morality. Instead, I suggest you better look at Swiss and German law.

Could you point me to 1 European company that was producing waterpsorts and fisting material years ago and which has stopped doing so now because they want to penetrate the American market? Videorama? DBM? I don't think so. If their desire to conquer the American market is at the heart of their decision to stop shooting material deemed dangerous in the US market, they sure don't have much to show for it now. In fact, you could only come to the conclusion that they are lousy business men.

No, I am convinced it is much more fruitful for the European porn community to stop blaming the Americans/American morality for the demise of certain aspects of European porn. Instead we are better off looking at ourselves and how many Europeans have reacted poorly to such factors as the globalization of the porn market, the American pricing policy, the star system (which is still a joke in Europea when compared to the US) and new aesthetic forms/formulas. Instead of competing with the Americans on their own terms and trying to (re)connect with a buying public, many European producers chose an easier way. They tried to compete with the Americans by copying them in making ever cheaper pro-am videos, instead of trying to differentiate their product by staying true to their own style. Don't blame the Americans when Europeans make the decision to copy them. Blame the European producers AND the European porn fans for embracing the American style.

Do they justify bashing of America/Americans? IMHO: Not really. But on the other hand, I do understand why people around here sometimes have a tendency to talk not too nicely about America.

But, hey, it is their liberty to do so, isn´t it?

Sure, just like I have the right to say that it's getting real tiresome at times.

Like I said before, replacing American arrogance and ignorance with European arrogance and ignorance is not exactly appealing to me.
For instance, the arrogance and ignorance in some of the posts in this thread isn't any better than the oft repeated complaint by some Americans that all Euro babes are nothing more than 'lifeless', 'cold' Euro Whores.

[hardware]

The only exception to the rule is Annette Schwarz, who seems to have a lot of North American fanboys.

... and Katsumi
... and Katja Kassin
... and Sandra Romain
... and Lucy Lee, etc.

American fanboys don't have access to that much European material, and many don't like that which they do have access to. Think about this - we're on a site dedicated to European babes, and yet, we're all communicating in English. You have no problem following an American porno scene, but the average American has no idea what's being said in a European production. Of course, some multi-nationals like Private just avoid conversation all together, which puts off many porners.

Now, put those European babes in a bunch of American porno movies and BAM!!!! Fanboys everywhere.

[STEMCELL]

[quote="hardware"][/quote]

excuse me, you´re correct, I forgot the soon to retire veterans who still have a solid fanbase

Your point with the language barrier is interesting. Even if talking in a porn movie may seem of minor importance I see it as you do.
Girls who are native (nasty) English speakers are a turn-on factor.
I only say Bree Olson.

That´s where the new crop of babes from Romania are excel in.
Florina Rose is a good example.

[chris]

I have even read someone complaining about euro chicks looking too much like models!!

that's true as Americans don't want to see girls who look like models in porn but some girls who just talk dirty in english!
that's why they prefer even from Europe the West and not the East.
I remember a poll on ADT when Katsumi wons against Simony
JESUS
take the same poll on EBI forum or EBT and you'll see the BIG difference.

[STEMCELL]

but Katsumi was hot.

[Mr_White]

.... Inspector Walter, I replace the word "fact" with the word "impression".

Thanks for pointing out my mistake to me.



btw, I sure was not referring to DBM or Videorama. Here I wholeheartedly agree with you, when you name these companies "lousy businessmen". Their success in the late 1980´s which lasted up to the 1990´s spoiled them so much that they absolutely forgot to watch the market and especially the new situation which arrived when DVD replaced good old VHS.
What happened to this companies is only a result of bad organisation (and especially in the case of DBM that paired with absolutely ignorant arrogance).
But, like I said I was not referring to these companies at all. The more so since I nowadays hardly believe no more that their flicks which I used to like back then really were original productions. I more and more came to the conclusion that many many of the old Videorama and DBM titles must be of some French origin, or at least co-productions between French and German companies. Whatever.

I was referring to producers like Private and Rocco Siffredi. Private? Yes, Private! Before Private became the company which they are now, they made some nice niche product. Ok, given, magazines only at that time, but still.
Do you know the Private magazines from the 1980´s/1990´s, Walter? If so, you sure know what I am talking about. If not, I will make a couple of scans for you one of these rainy days....

Both, Private and Rocco IMHO sold their original ideas of porn to the success on the American market. Private with becoming what they are nowadays and Rocco with making his deal with Evil Angel.
Not that I blame them. Money talks, shit walks. That´s the way the world ends. Not with a bang.

In finishing, I´d like to say that I absolutely agree with your impression about the Dolly Golden subject, which you pointed out to us. Just because of some big tits which come as the result of plastic surgery, she is put into the "American corner", although she is French and - far as I know - hardly ever worked outside of Europe....

Good night Jim Bob .......


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btw, your excursions to German and Swiss law hits the point when it comes to Switzerland, but I do not understand the connection to Germany???

[chris]

btw, your excursions to German and Swiss law hits the point when it comes to Switzerland, but I do not understand the connection to Germany???

I don't understand for Germany too.
SG Video and John Thompson are German studios

[Walter Burns]

But, like I said I was not referring to these companies at all. The more so since I nowadays hardly believe no more that their flicks which I used to like back then really were original productions. I more and more came to the conclusion that many many of the old Videorama and DBM titles must be of some French origin, or at least co-productions between French and German companies. Whatever.

AFAIK, both DBM and Videorama produced original content. They often did hire French personnel -- crew, director, performers, locations. But no co-productions that I know of.
Magma/MTC did some co-productions. As did VTO in the 80s.

I was referring to producers like Private and Rocco Siffredi. Private? Yes, Private! Before Private became the company which they are now, they made some nice niche product. Ok, given, magazines only at that time, but still.
Do you know the Private magazines from the 1980´s/1990´s, Walter? If so, you sure know what I am talking about. If not, I will make a couple of scans for you one of these rainy days....

No need to do that. I am familiar with the Private magazines from the 60s onward.

Both, Private and Rocco IMHO sold their original ideas of porn to the success on the American market. Private with becoming what they are nowadays and Rocco with making his deal with Evil Angel.
Not that I blame them. Money talks, shit walks. That´s the way the world ends. Not with a bang.

I am not sure I follow you here. Let's assume that Rocco and Private did sell out their original idea of porn to conquer the American market -- and I am far from convinced they did, especially Rocco. Then why blame the American market? Why not blame Rocco and Private? They are the ones that sold out.

I also fail to understand why they should sell out to enter the American market in the first place. The concept of European editions in and out of porn has existed well before Rocco and even Private were in business and both have made use of the concept. There are also American companies that produce European versions -- and not just Max Hardcore either.

btw, your excursions to German and Swiss law hits the point when it comes to Switzerland, but I do not understand the connection to Germany???

AFAIK, Germany has the most stringent age verification laws in Europe, severely limiting activities of online retailers of XXX material. That's why Videorama struck a deal with Orgazmik to ensure they were present in at least one widely available online store. But Orgazmik is located in Switzerland and they didn't want to carry Videorama DVDs with watersports in them, because of the Swiss laws. So Videorama cut the watersports in their DVD releases in order to be able to sell their DVDs through Swiss based Orgazmik. And it was a German law that basically drove them to Orgazmik.
That's how it was explained to me a couple of years ago anyway. It's also why most aficionados of the 'classic' Videorama titles are not buying the DVDrama re-releases on DVD, but the Spanish versions released by Papillon. Apparentely, the watersports scenes are intact in those Spanish versions.

[chris]

so Walter
why I see so many watersports scenes in German original titles from SG Video,666/John Thompson,New Climax,MJP e.t.c. ???

[Walter Burns]

Because German law does not forbid watersports.

And American morality has little impact on European porn.